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Talk:Alternate reality
Timeline repair? Is any reason given as to why Daniels or Captain Braxton didn't repair the timeline. The destruction of a major Federation world is too significant for them to ignore. :No, there's no mention of temporal agents like Daniels and Braxton in the film. We could speculate about their absence, but the model of time travel used in this film suggests that the previous timeline (in which Vulcan is not destroyed) continued to exist in parallel with the new one, so perhaps Daniels and Braxton and their ilk simply aren't bothered with what happens in a parallel universe. —Josiah Rowe 04:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC) So how come every other time that time travel appears in Star Trek, the timeline changes, and the characters have to try to repair the timeline, but in the new movie, the new timeline exists parrallel to the original timeline?Icecreamdif 22:15, 11 May 2009 (UTC) ::My answer would be because Spock Prime has adopted this timeline as a crucial one and acts directly to shape it (information to Scotty and advice for Kirk, etc). This is justified, in Spock Prime's eyes, I imagine, by the scope and scale of catastrophic events which the timeline invovles... destruction of the galaxy in the original timeline (who knows whether the remaining singulatiry from the supernova managed to stop that fate or not!), and the destruction of Romulus and Vulcan in their respective timelines. The New Timeline is 'momentous'. --Aqaraza 22:24, 11 May 2009 (UTC) :::I'll try not to get into speculation but I do want to answer the original question. Braxton et al only ever dealt with temporal incursions that started in their home timeframe (the events of Future's End and Relativity are both intiated by a transit from the 29th Century to the 24th). As for Daniels, the only way the temporal cold war makes sense is if the same things applies - i.e. it was started in the 31st Century and spread from there. Anyway, you may as well ask where they were in First Contact, or City on the Edge... etc. Although never explicit, it looks like characters only deal with events started in their own timeframe and that includes those from the future. :::As for the second point regarding whether previous time travels were parallel or not, I've found that most (but not all) of the previous time travel stories make more sense when viewed with the parallel universe paradigm in mind (especially Yesterdays Ent. and Endgame). If you really need a reason to tell yourself, assume that some forms of time travel stay within universe, and some create a new one.LordJuss 11:50, 27 May 2009 (UTC) ::::Abrams, Orci and Kurtzman have used the same alternate reality plot twist in their series Fringe. In Star Trek-terms we are talking about different quantum realities. So it appears that the "mysterious lightning storm black holes" are something similar to the quantum fissure encountered by Worf in . Also it is very apparent in the films dialogue between the two Spocks at the end that no timeline repairing is necessary in this films case. ::::Spock (alt): "How did you persuade him to keep your secret?" ::::Spock (prime): "He inferred that universe ending paradoxes would ensue should he break his promise." ::::Spock (alt): "You lied?" ::::...in other words: no temporal paradox would result if alt-Spock doesn't return from the future in the new timeline, as the old timeline was never changed, and prime-Spock will still return from the future in the 24th century from the prime universe. ::::--Pseudohuman 10:30, 19 June 2009 (UTC) So basicly the Daniels and Braxton of this new timeline would only go back in time to fix things IF SOMEONE STOPPED Vulcan's fate (because the history books of the 31st cent. would show that was how it was to be) - sithlord :Possibly, but I could see them, assuming they exist in this universe (other things seem to have changed even before Nero showed up), showing to stop Nero and save the USS Kelvin if not to save Vulcan directly. --Frank Columbo 04:46, 11 August 2009 (UTC) :::::As a film, the new Star Trek is excellent. However, it does not in any way continue or parallel the canon universe created by Gene Roddenberry and (later) Rick Berman. The reason is this: Nero from the Berman universe time travels back and sets a series of events in motion which cause the ultimate destruction of Roddenberry's universe. Because Vulcan is destroyed by Nero in the past, it is destroyed as well in the future. Thus the Captain Kirk that we all loved in the 1960s-1990s never existed because of the untimely death of George Kirk. ::::::Wrong. Parallel universes are common in star trek - see . — Morder (talk) 22:45, October 28, 2009 (UTC) :::::::I assumed that it was because the change in the timeline was due to a natural course of events. Nero/Spock` did not elect to travel in time, it was rather the inadvertent side-effect of a species working to ensure its survival. The "time-cops" typically fix messes when deliberate action is taken to travel in time AND upset the timeline (e.g. Yesterday's Enterprise Enterprise-C travelling though a naturally-occurring anomaly is a natural progression of events for the timeline--thus no time-cops) Terminology If Star Trek 11 was a "reboot" is it not conceivable we should not consider this an "alternate reality" as to not be confused with all the other episode-long temporal incursions and rather call it something else? "Reboot Universe"? "Star Trek 11 Universe"? "New (2009) Universe"? :There's a discussion of what terminology to use to refer to the film's timeline here. —Josiah Rowe 04:43, 10 May 2009 (UTC) Alternate reality Isn't the page name a bit too generic? I mean I'm pretty sure the term has shown up in previous trek shows. And wasn't there a boxset of star trek episodes called "alternate realities" as well? 05:40, 10 May 2009 (UTC) :As I noted above, there's discussion of this here, especially here. —Josiah Rowe 05:47, 10 May 2009 (UTC) Could we please seperate the alternate universe/reality/timeline from the other trivia about Star Trek? When I read articles about the Kobayashi Maru, about Kirk or the Enterprise, I want to know the orginal Star Trek trivia, I don't want the alternate reality of the new reboot to overwrite stuff. How about two Kobayashi Maru articles, two Kirk articles, and so forth? :Nothing at all has been rewritten, and no "original trivia" has been excised. --OuroborosCobra talk 21:21, 16 May 2009 (UTC) Red Matter Timeline / Red Matter Universe My vote would be that, since the role of Red Matter was so pivotal in the creation of this timeline, a better codename would be the Red Matter Timeline / Universe. Without Red Matter, the cataclysm that would have ended the Classic / Prime Timeline could not have been avoided, and the events of the 2009 Star Trek would not have been possible. The scope of events which Spock the Elder describes is catastrophic in scope: A potential destruction of the Milky Way Galaxy. The destruction of Romulus in the Classic Timeline, and the destruction of Vulcan in the proposed Red Matter Timeline, are both events of extreme impact, and are both shaped by the role of Red Matter. --Aqaraza 00:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC) Red Matter incursion / Narada-Kelvin as Catalyst It strikes me that there is a way to explain even the differences in the Enterprise's form factor and apparent technology through considering the massive impact the Narada incursion would have on the Classic Timeline. If a vessel of such extreme advancement were encountered, it would surely become a catalyst for an increased concern with R&D and advancement of technology, simply as a counter-response. Even the differences in look of the cast members could be explained by a 'butterfly effect' of the Narada's incursion and its massive impact. This is just a speculation / retcon at the moment, but something to ponder. --Aqaraza 00:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC) :Didn't want to nit-pick, good idea for a retcon, but do remember that the Nero incursion occurred AFTER the construction of the USS Kelvin, so the more "advanced" construction of the technologies on the Kelvin should not be an affect of the incursion. :Furthermore, Spock Prime obviously recognizes the alternate version of himself, Kirk and Scotty. Therefore, even according to your logic, these three actors should be identical to their prime reality counterparts. :But then again, this is all fiction anyways :) Ubcphysicsyangbo 08:50, 11 May 2009 (UTC) Yes, a bit of a silly sidenote, but fun. As to the Kelvin, its form factor is actually (to my eyes) somewhere between that of Archer's Enterprise and the new Enterprise. So, that makes the TOS Enterprise a sort of detour into simplified modernist lines and colors... A road not taken in the new timeline. And as to Spock's recognition of the characters... my theory is that he was not recognizing them primarily on a visual level, but on a psionic level. :) Retcon is fun! :I speculate that The NX-01 Enterprise, and the USS Kelvin designs may have been affected by 21st Century scientists exposure to 24th Century technology for a few days in Star Trek:First Contact. Joeloveland 16:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC) Sequel equals timeline repair? There is a sequel on the way, due to be released in 2011. Perhaps it is Kirk and crew going to the future or back in time using the ever so popular slingshot manuever to stop Nero from ever going A: Back in Time or B: Ever meeting George Kirk. How this happens is beyond me, but I am sure that it will be funny for him trying to not get noticed by George or having a Spock Prime, a Alternate Reality Spock meet young Spock. I wonder how they will handle this... :Not really the place for speculation. -- sulfur 20:20, 11 May 2009 (UTC) ::Sulfur's right, but to further squash this line of thinking: writer Roberto Orci has said, in reference to their use of time travel in the 2009 film, "Despite travel's overuse, we thought ‘let’s use it one more time before we put it away, and then not use it again.’ " This strongly suggests that the next film won't deal with time travel. —Josiah Rowe 22:13, 11 May 2009 (UTC) Destiny and Synchronicity as Timeline Repair Now here's an interesting exchange from an MTV interview today about some of the seemingly unlikely serendipities in the movie's events: MTV: Out of the entire universe, how do Elder Spock and Kirk happen to get stranded on the same planet? Are we expected to believe it's just a coincidence? Kurtzman: One of the things we're playing to is the theme of destiny ... the idea that it wasn't actually random chance. It seems like random chance if you run into Spock in that cave, but it wasn't. And in some way, the time stream is trying to mend itself. MTV: And how about Scotty? Is it a coincidence that he happens to be on that moon as well? Kurtzman: It goes back to the idea that the time stream is trying to mend itself. These characters are essentially destined to find each other in one way or another — and that fate is literally bringing them together. --Aqaraza 04:26, 13 May 2009 :As an atheist, this "fate" ideas isn't really correct. From a sci-fi perspective, it's more like, the new/altered timeline would be more stable if it fell closer to the original timeline. Rather than fate, I see as some sort of extra-dimensional energy that is trying to "mend" the altered timeline. Perhaps this would also mean that the Vulcan race will continue to thrive (in order to match up to the original timeline), and that Romulus must be "destroyed" or eradicated in some form (again, in order to match the original timeline). 21:43, 16 May 2009 (UTC) New timeline better or worse? I think its better-Vulcanclown :Create a forum, this is for discussing the article not opinions about the show. — Morder 22:04, 15 May 2009 (UTC) ::Even the Forum, as I understand it, is not meant for discussion about Trek in general or to discuss opinions, it's to ask specific questions.--31dot 22:06, 15 May 2009 (UTC) Time Travel vs parallel universe travel The problem is this movie mixes what up to now were two separate ideas in Star Trek: time travel and parallel universe travel. Parallels like Mirror, Mirror is an parallel universe travel story and NOT a time travel story. "City on the Edge or Forever," "Yesterday's Enterprise", "First Contact", "Past Tense", "The Visitor", "Time and Again", "Future's End", "Before and After", "Year of Hell", "Timeless", "Relativity", and "Endgame" all established that tampering with the past DOES change the present and does NOT create alternate realities. In fact, this is shoved in the viewer's face and down their throat all the above episodes. :And what does this have to do with the article? — Morder (talk) 19:52, 24 June 2009 (UTC) Removed Evidence indicates that the alternate universe was changed even before these events with the Kelvin and Narada. In the alternate universe some Starfleet linguists confused the Romulan and Vulcan languages and Starfleet knew what the Romulans looked liked in 2233 long before Starfleet did in the Prime Universe. If the Romulan and Vulcan languages were as similar in the Prime Universe as they are in the alternate universe Starfleet would have connected the origin of the races sooner just as they did in the alternate universe. This is at least speculation, if not an outright nitpick. - Archduk3:talk 23:29, 8 August 2009 (UTC) Archduk3 as I tried to explain elsewhere, when I wrote this I did not mean to nick pick only point out that the Abrams Universe may have changed before the appearance of Nero. --Frank Columbo 04:16, 9 August 2009 (UTC) :This comment was made before the posts on Morder's talk page. I haven't gotten around to doing anything about this because I've been distracted watching Wil Wheaton ham it up in season 7 of TNG. - Archduk3:talk 04:37, 9 August 2009 (UTC) :LOL - Understood. It could have been worse. You may not have been able to pull your eyes from . --Frank Columbo 04:39, 11 August 2009 (UTC) A fate worse then death if i ever heard one. - Archduk3:talk 05:19, 11 August 2009 (UTC) ::Removed the following uncited speculation and inappropriate criticism: ::Some argue that alternate reality is ruled by different laws of probability: Kirk has unusual tendency for hanging from a cliff or catwalk (twice in trailer, four times in the movie) and meeting old friends (Spock and Scotty) on uninhabited icy planets. Effect may be caused by writers lack of creativity.--31dot 22:04, November 11, 2009 (UTC) Other elements There are loads of changes that diverge this timeline from the prime reality, not just the destruction of Vulcan. Ought not these be elaborated on more, but in particular in a side note could the Klingon's be mentioned. On screen they had 47 (?) ships destroyed and deleted content points to then capturing the Narada and perhaps, in the same manner as the article already comments - that the Kelvin crew had scans of the Narada which led to advances in starfleet technology (and probably with the Enterprise was launched much later) - they obtained technology from that ship themselves. Of course we cannot elaborate on it even if included in a side note but all these impacts on the timeline define the alternative reality. You have all the events that didn't happen as well and what impact they might have. 11:10, 29 August 2009 (UTC) Alternate reality - just an alternate timeline? I really think that we should just consider the alternate reality an alternate timeline and not a Parallel universe. There is nothing at all that suggests that the movie was set in another universe, just an altered timeline...but it's still the same universe. I have heard discussion that the prime reality could still exist...and if that's the case, it would have to be a parallel universe. But once again, there's no canon evidence that it is. Spock-Prime indicated that he was from the future...but he didn't say he was from another universe. I realize it's possible that he didn't know for sure but still it wasn't indicated in the film. Bottom line, I say Spock is from the same universe as everyone else, just a different timeline. The only evidence that there is that he's from another timeline comes from Star Trek Online, in which the prime "universe" as it is referred to as, still exists in 2409. But that isn't canon. I don't see how it could be "another universe." It must be the same universe, but just an alternate timeline. Who's with me? That seems pretty obvious to me. Although we could mention that it's not entirely certain as to whether it's an alternate timeline or a parallel universe. --Kobyashi Maru 21:55, January 4, 2010 (UTC) :Well there are three things against calling the alternate reality an alternate timeline. First of all, before being teased by his classmates, young Spock is asked by the computer in the learning center on Vulcan: "What is the central assumption of quantum cosmology?" To which Spock replies: "Everything that can happen does happen in equal and parallel universes." This is barely audible in the film itself but is there and can propably be found in the script. It is in the novelization of Star Trek written by Alan Dean Foster. Secondly we have the conversation at the end between Spocks: "How did you persuade him to keep your secret?" to which prime-Spock replies: "He inferred that universe ending paradoxes would ensue should he break his promise." Spock: "You lied?" in other words: no temporal paradox would result if the new Spock doesn't return from the future in the "new timeline", as the old timeline was never changed, and prime-Spock still returns from the future in the 24th century from the "prime universe". Hence both universes coexist, so they are parallel universes. And we have the writers and producers intent to continue the quantum reality concept introduced in "Parallels". so I think you are correct it was not stated canonically that these are different quantum realities, but it doesnt seem correct to claim that the future from which prime-Spock came was now rewritten aka, an alternate timeline. As the concept of alternate timelines has been defined in Star Trek pretty clearly, and this isn't it. --Pseudohuman 22:31, January 4, 2010 (UTC) I'm not sure I follow, could you explain that? In what way has it been established that the definitions of what an alternate timeline is does not apply here? Also I think I should point out that the whole Spock meeting Spock thing was just used as a means to get Kirk and younger Spock together so that they could learn to work together, and become friends. I don't see how it had anything to do with the alteration of the timeline. If Spock was to return to the future...it would be the future of the alternate reality...unless it's a parallel universe....which wasn't exactly firmly established. Nor was it even indicated. --Kobyashi Maru 23:10, January 4, 2010 (UTC) ::(edit conflict) Also, it was decided to go along with the writers' intentions to avoid basing information from the movie on one particular fanon interpretation of the film. Fans can interpret this particular scenario any number of ways; your interpretation of events, Kobyashi, is only one of dozens I have seen online. So, to avoid committing to one fanon (and thus non-canon) interpretation of the whole alternate timeline/parallel universe fiasco, we went with what the writers' intended it to be: an alternate reality which splintered off the prime reality and which does not impact the previously-existing reality. Hope that makes sense. If not, just keep in mind that Memory Alpha cannot adopt one fan's interpretation of the scenario. :) --From Andoria with Love 23:16, January 4, 2010 (UTC) :Also, if it was an alternate timeline, there would be a paradox. and it is stated in the film that there are no paradoxes in this case. --Pseudohuman 10:34, January 5, 2010 (UTC) :::You all should be aware that, personal interpretation aside, there does not seem to be any clear difference between alternate timelines, universes or realities. See, for example, the article alternate timeline. It defines an alternate timeline as a "tangential space-time continuum" - and a Space-time continuum is defined as a whole "plane of existence" (which, to me, sounds pretty much like the description of a "reality"). Similarly, this article claims that an "alternate reality" is a "parallel universe". :::Now, before you storm to those articles and change them according to your personal speculation about what the differences might be - please make sure that this really is the case, and quote your sources! -- Cid Highwind 11:47, January 5, 2010 (UTC)